Tech Controller to Flyer to Professor of Project Management

Stuart, it's a, pleasure to see you, my friend. I'm getting ... I'm e- extremely excited to kick this off with you. we have talked about this for quite some time, and you have the ability to be able to talk about people's experience as they're in the service, and then transitioning out, whether it be through separation, retirement, medical retirement, what have you, into project management f- field is exceptionally exciting.

I remember, you know, the first time that I got out of the military, I separated, for about two years and then went in, and now I'm retired. you know, the challenges were pretty similar. So I'm excited to help- ... those folks be able to, navigate this space as they move on to their, next career.

So thank you for having me. Listen- Thank you for your willingness to jump on board and have this discussion with me and host this show along with me, my friend.

Yes. Well, I th- there's a lot to unpack there, with everything that you said, Stewart.

As you know, project management is a vast, has a vast, background in industries and ways to go about it through methodologies and frameworks and, everything in between. Each, each organization could be doing more of that traditional predictive waterfall type of approach, a- but they do it differently.

And then you've got Agile and Scrum. You've got PRINCE2 project,which is Projects In Controlled Environments 2. You know, there, there's just a whole slew in how industries and how organizations leverage it i- is quite, vast. And so through our conversations and looking at the overall footprint, that's kind of our aim,is not necessarily make this about Project Management Institute certifications, which in the United States and Canada, North America,and arguably across the globe is ubiquitous.

It's all over the place. But there are other frameworks that are necessary. And there's people who aren't in, the f- you know, working in industry with a certification, and how are they getting in? what's the impact that they see? How have they been able to formalize themselves? Because the military positions people exceptionally well to, to do projects and program management.

And so just to level the bubbles, if you will what is a project? The project is something that is finite. it has a definite start and definite end. It is complex, interconnected, and unique generally speaking. Now, there's a lot of argument, depending on what circle you're in practitioner circle versus academia, et cetera, that says, "Hey, you know, it, it's gotta be so unique that it's never been done before and the likelihood it's never gonna be done again."

Look, I'm a, I'm a practitioner, I'm an academic. I do research in this area. and, but that said, my- this is my opinion on it, and, you know, we'll let the robust discussion play out how it is. From my perspective, especially in, in coming from a military member, I'd be put in positions where I would, you know, be responsible for a project.

Now, it may not be a new type of project that hasn't ever been done before, but it certainly was new to me and new to anybody else who did it. And so-

Yes. Well, and look, I get it to a certain degree. You know, words have meanings, definitions have meanings, right? So, and then when you're, when you go onto the research side, you have to define everything that you do, every variable- ... that you're going to assess. And then, from an, an academic perspective, a research perspective, you have to be able to justify why it's this versus that.

So I get it that we have to be explicit o- on our language. What I would say is bridging that gap between the, the research and academia into the actual practical aspects and delivering value to organizations, we need to understand that there needs to be some flexibility. Now, please let me be clear, is the difference between project and operations.

You may treat it, something new that's gonna be finite, as a, a project that right off the bat. But then your organization turns that into more of the operational model, so now you're going to operations management. You're doing the same thing over and over again. You're looking at the cycle times, the- You know-

attack time, et cetera. Yeah. but that's where the transition is, and, that doesn't do away with the methodologies or frameworks that you're going to do. It's just that shift in motion. But then you could still turn it into a project by le- leveraging Lean Six Sigma. So- Right ... it's being able to see trends-

between them.

Well, oh, 100%, and here's the other thing is having left the military twice,you know, from the separation then the retirement side, it...

Here's what I found interesting. So if I can, Stuart, I'll just give you a quick little snapshot of my background.

Yeah, so, I'm an Air Force veteran. I did a little over 21, total active duty time. I have some reserve time, m- mostly as part of Reserve Officer Training Corps, in college.

But I started off enlisted, and I was, what's called a tech controller. Now, the, that career field no longer exists. we were considered water walkers because we were the, the technical aspect to computer networking before computer networking was a thing. Now, I originally went in the late '90s, and you wanna talk about, Somebody w- was probably, who quite frankly stumbled into it, the Air Force said, "Hey, you're gonna be a tech controller."

I was like, "That's great. What is that?" And there, you know, it's all started back when there was long haul circuits coming from overseas and messages being able to, you know, go from Europe to the US or Asia to the US, et cetera. So the precursor to the internet. And so you're looking at analog, you know, the...

When you think analog, think of your mobile phone or- ... back when there were still landlines, you know, tho- and not going over the internet. This is,

It's, Right ...

I, and I'll tell you, I never had an e- email address before I went into this career field. I literally created my first ever email address when I was in tech school.

Right. You know, they were,I think it's pretty safe to assume the vast majority of people know these terms now. And it was arguable in the late '90s, I'm talking like '98, '99, but people were talking in my class about users and PCs and things of that nature. And e- embarrassingly enough, I was like, "I don't know what those are."

I was trying to go to the back of the book and look up w- you know, the acronyms, and it w- they were so basic that they weren't even in the acronym list. So,

Oh my goodness. I think I was on the internet once in my high school library. That's how, you know, divorced of it was, I was to it.

You know, everybody I got in there, they chose that career field and they're like, "Hey, I can do what- whatever you want with a computer." Clearly I was not that guy at that time. What

Yes. Well, you know, I took the ASVAB and I scored high in electrical and, so I was well-positioned for it. Right. to, and therefore said, "Hey, this is what you're gonna do." And I said, "Well- This

sounds great." So, I got to my first base and it was all network engineering. Network infrastructure, was my first base.

and then I started doing network security, so firewalls, proxy servers, those type of things. But, my first duty station, they still had modems on base and things of that nature. So not only was I troubleshooting the network, but I was on the telephone block trying to find where- ... where the, the analog line was going from the modem through the walls to the telephone block to the inside plant, and I mean, just everything between digital and analog, that's what I ended up doing.

The

Oh, yeah. It was great. But, you know, here's the thing is I started seeing project management in place because IT project management, happens. It-

talk about a vast career field, because I'd ha- I'd go out and I'd be troubleshooting a, a modem, and then I'd jump on a switch and I'd look at what ports were closed or, you know, on, then over to a router and doing access lists and a lot of the, the routing type of stuff.

And then I'd get a phone call from a, a different office that's looking at building to the architecture. So I started getting into, to network architecture design and, building out requirements for these individuals, what they need based on their capacity and budget and things of that nature. So that's really where I kinda saw it.

And then I got, I got s- picked up for an ROTC scholarship, and I did a two-year ROTC scholarship 'cause I really wanted to fly. And while I was in ROTC and school full-time, I became a, a defense contractor. And so I worked for, w- at the time it was called Front Range Consolidated Network, and it was a group of bases where I managed 80,000 users and now I was strictly doing firewall and, tier three level support for project...

not projects, for this network. So, you know, they, the base would troubleshoot. If the base couldn't figure it out, then they'd push it over to us, and then we'd troubleshoot. And so I was bouncing all over the place, I'll be honest with you. But a- again, project management was To me, at least at that point, it was just making it happen.

Right. You tell me something needs to happen and I'll, okay, like I'll give this person a call, I'll give that person a call. Did you- Do you have this kind of

I started hearing about it because I heard some of the lieutenants,in the co- communication squadron saying, "Oh, PMP." This is when PMP, was kind of my first exposure to it- Okay ... in project management writ large.

It was in passing. That's to the extent. I'm like, "Oh, okay, the, so they're talking about making things happen." All right.

Okay, cool. No, I, you tell me that it needs to be done and I'll figure out how to make it happen. But it always kind of, it was under the surface quietly.

y- I figured there was much more depth to it, but I just, you know, the, that, that was the extent.

Well, I ended up, going on the, back into the Air Force, commissioned going in, and I was,combat systems officer,electronic warfare and navigation. And I was dual qualified in both of those positions. But of, of course, once you have IT, on you, you get rolled into any IT position.

Immediately I started leading the, communications, flight within my flying squadron. And, you know, the, the way the Air Force was structured at the time was if you wanted to get promoted, probably a good idea, among other things, to get a master's degree. Well, I was watching what everybody else was doing, and there, there's a lot of opportunity to earn master's degrees.

And for anybody watching this, they recognize that as well. for me, I was particularly interested in if I've got to do it, I only want to do it once. And so I want to get something that is gonna be useful. And originally I looked at an MBA and I liked the idea of a, a Masters of Business Administration, because that kind of fit the overall general administration type of perspective.

but I h- had this- tickle, so to speak, of project management. Like, what is this? Like, I get that I can figure out, you know, what finance is, what accounting is, what is, organizational behavior. Yeah, that's great, but, you know, I keep seeing people get stuff- say, "Get stuff done. Deliver value." You know, you've got this objec- objective that you need to achieve.

How do you do that? Like, is there a way to formally do that? Well, I started looking at all the programs, and I came acoss- across George Washington University, and they had a fantastic project management program. And I was like That's, that is what I think I wanna do. So I applied and was fortunate enough to get picked up for it, based on, you know, my beating, beating my way through project management.

I, I did have, a few years of project management experience writ large, just didn't formalize it. Now, well, here's this transformative experience to really develop and hone my skills as a project manager, and so I jumped on it. Right. I looked at everything else, and that's the pathway I wanted to go.

And I'll tell you, notwithstanding that it was a fantastic program, but project management helped me significantly throughout my entire career. Because I, not only did I have the mentality of no-fail missions on pretty much everything, like I would say I wasn't unique on that. That's pretty much a mentality for most, if not all people, certainly most people in the military.

But now I had a framework to understand it, and after going through GW, and there's a lot of other fantastic programs out there, I was able to really excel because now I could take s- look at risk management through a m- mathematical or quantitative approach. I looked at it through a qualitative approach.

I was able to transform into that project manager and professionalize, be professionalized in the field, so to speak. Now, that didn't stop me from wanting to get a business administration because, you know, talking about the operations management side of things, but that, I, the way I saw it was I wanted to make sure that I could have short-term delivery of value.

N- a- and when I say short-term- So it would

Yes. I, I, when I say short-term delivery, I'm talking about from a project perspective- Yeah ... not, you know, something that I deliver value that breaks five minutes later. but a- and later I ended up, from an academic perspective, I ended up earning, my doctorate in business administration because of the administration side of things.

Because my philosophy is, and the way that I look at it, is all right, it's important to be able to look at business a- and an organizational structure that is meant to be- Arguably into perpetuity, so forever. It's not supposed to die down. You're supposed to continue to create value and deliver to customers, so on and so forth.

So you're looking at the administration side. If you know how to manage projects with this finite and the infinite, and then be able to merge those two together, that is a particularly interesting perspective from my point of view. Because you're looking at change management, you're looking at innovation.

If you're doing it right, you're looking at entrepreneurship. So how do you merge the, the, the finite with the infinite? And understanding both and being able to do both i- is necessary. And so as I progressed, I did various different jobs, from flying to some, some ground stuff. I got pulled into what's called a Half Pack Hands program, so I did a- I did that for a few years.

I ended up supporting Wounded Warriors, was a strategist,at NORAD. Did a bunch of work with,with NORTHCOM,unsurprisingly. but and then, I ended up retiring f- out of the Pentagon leading the Invisible Wounds initiative. I also had... I was an action officer,with policy portfolio underneath me, looking at things like resilience and suicide prevention and-

Yes, it depends on the career field. I had, I had more of a unique experience, I would say, in the military. I-- Look, being in the military, if I was being quite frank, was the best decision that I made.

I don't believe I would've been able to experience the things that I was able to experience, be able to achieve what I was able to achieve had it not been for the military. and quite frankly, I'm, I'm-- I, I believe it was a privilege for me to serve. there was, there were some, certainly some challenges.

I flew... I guess within the grand scheme of things, I didn't fly as much as, a lot of the other folks that were rated, 'cause I got pulled in and I had, a lot of ground combat time along with my flying, combat time. In fact, I have nearly three times the amount of ground combat missions as I do flying, missions, based on my platform.

And so that gave me a very different perspective. And then the effects of my ground combat time a- and some of my flying time eventually disqualified me from flying, so I got to do and see some other things. So all supporting operations and still being part of operations, because even though I was disqualified due to medical conditions, you know, I still filled rated positions.

I still f- you know, just desk-based r- Yeah ... rated positions. But, you know, based on some of these experiences and what I did with the Invisible Wounds initiative, I worked for fantastic leadership. I can't speak highly, a-any more highly of them than, you know, I already do. they're absolutely phenomenal.

was when I was pursuing my doctorate, it was dissertation-related. And so what I did is I looked at the work that I was doing to support wounded warriors. Now, a lot of people, when they hear wounded warriors, they think of the Wounded Warrior Project, which they do a lot of fantastic things in a not-for-profit setting and, it's a fantastic organization.

I'm a member of theirs. The, but there's wa- was and is, at least at the time of thi- this recording, the Invisible Wounds Initiative, and Wounded Warrior programs that were specifically directed by the US Congress to develop- ... programs for service entities. and so those are military entities to support their own wounded warriors.

Now, I saw a, you know, a lot of individuals that were suffering from invisible wounds. And so when I went to do my dissertation, I looked at it and I was thinking quite hard about, you know, the, the medical evaluation process, individuals who were suffering based on second and third order effects to the very job that they were doing on behalf of their organization and the government and so on and so forth.

And I was like, "There's got to be a way that we can retain." And so what do leaders look for? What would I be looking for if I had troops that, you know, were struggling? And so that,between that and, you know, at the time our faculty director at my doctoral program, her and I were sitting there chatting and she was like, "Why aren't you looking at things in PTSD?"

As I was thinking about my dissertation. And, you know, to be frank, I was struggling with my own bout of it and pretty bad at the time. and so I was looking at this and I was like, "You know what? I wonder Is this something that, you know, therapy has its place, and I certainly, you know, it's important that people get the support that they need through therapy.

But what about from the organizational perspective, the commander perspective, the supervisor perspective? What does that look like? And does that really matter? And so I set up a study that looked at,PTSD symptom severity, you know, at, on the forefront to the organization. So looking at perceived organizational support.

So, I'll do my best to not geek out on the, the, the academic, verbiage, but essentially if somebody has PTSD and they go into an organization, does it matter that, they feel supported? And if it matters that they feel supported, then what does that do for work outcome? All right? And what I found, this should be not a shock to a whole lot of people, but mathematically, quantitatively, I was able to show that, hey, when symptom severity goes up, they have a, the perception that the organization cares about their wellbeing and values their contributions is reduced.

And when it's reduced, guess what? Performance is not that great.

what I assumed. their work pro- ou- output is not good.

their,the timeliness of the work that they do struggles. Their interpersonal, mental and interpersonal relationships struggle. physically there's negative impact.

But I... What else I was interested in is what about an authentic leader? How does that moderate, strengthen or weaken the relationship? Well, unfortunately, a- at least in this study, the relationship didn't have a significant impact on- Right ... the overall perceptions of organizational support. I am working out on a study where that shows something different.

I don't wanna get ahead of myself, so I'm gonna leave it there maybe add some suspense. But- ... ultimately, taking my project management experience and my passion to support, individuals suffering from invisible wounds, particularly post-traumatic stress disorder, I found myself in a unique position to be able to help the Department of the Air Force writ large.

And so- Yeah ... through- So

Yo, 100%. So-

Yes. All of the above.

so, Certainly the undergrad, 'cause I wanted to fly in the Air Force, y- you know, the, in, in be behind the yoke or the stick, whatever, I looked at commissioning. And then my master's in project management was because I wanted a way to cr- be able to create value, figure out, the inputs, tools, techniques, and outputs, to borrow a phrase from PMI.

really think about the framework and how you actually effectively manage a project. But my tour, my last Afghanistan tour, I, I got home and, you know, I was thinking through what I really wanted to do and, you know, I wanted to get into academia. if, I told my wife, "If we had all the money in the world," which we don't, but if I, if we did, then I'd wanna go get my doctorate and move into academia.

And so I started looking at pathways to be able to do that. And, you know, I won't go just for the sake of time into too much detail on that, but, I found a program that met my requirements, because still I was actively flying at that time, that,that helped enable me to get there.

But here's the thing, Stuart One thing that I saw from my enlisted time going in was the requirement to start planning while you're in service for life after service. Because whether you do 30 or 40 years, depending on the branch, or you do four years, the ride comes to an end. Right. And then what?

You can have, you know, if you're one of the few that are able to just retire from there, fantastic. You know, go live your dream, do your thing. But ultimately, r- regardless of if you're a transportation individual, you're an aerial refueler, you're an infantryman, you know, and everything in between, that r- the ride comes to an end.

So what the heck are you going to do? Do you wanna wait until you're six months out and jump on a, you know, program like S- SkillBridge? It's a fantastic program, but what skills are you going to have entering into that? Or are you hoping to get trained for the next? You can do both at the same time. You can deliver value in your organization, and if you decide to stay the full 20 plus years, then you're positioned through education or certifications or what have you, to be able to deliver value and you'll reap the rewards, through your fit rep or your performance reports or what have you.

Or you can wait till the last minute and then add to the stress of trying to figure out when the time's done. You may be one of those lucky individuals that has a career that automatically translates into something else. that's fantastic. Is that what you want to do when you're out? Or are you ready to wash your hands and move on to something new and start a new adventure in your life?

These are questions that I certainly ask myself. I'd recommend others ask themselves. Ultimately, you know, you, to, to the extent that you have, you can kind of pave your own path. That's interesting ... certainly my career didn't end up that way. I mean, I could have not predicted, what I was- Right

gonna do in my career. But, if I just may real quick, and I'm sorry to, to,be long-winded on this.

it. But, By being well-positioned, and I saw this particularly by when I got out when I was enlisted, I always kept it in mind that what if something happens and, yeah, maybe I'm not, I don't choose, but what if I'm not, I'm forced to not do whatever it is I want to do?

To be able to have the other direction, that's, that's important. So to go back and answer your question after the long-winded response that I had, I, I had it in mind kind of what I wanted to do, particularly about halfway through my, my time as an officer, a- with the hopes that I could go into academia.

So I earned a doctorate to make sure that I went g- had the opportunity to go into academia, and I'm happy to say that, you know, that thanks be to God it worked out. and now I'm a, an assistant professor and a assistant school director for, at Western Carolina University, and, So- Talk about a fantastic transition.

Particularly, I'm an assistant professor of project management- Right ... at Western Carolina.

very aligned. And, and- I think

Well, academia is, certainly a lot different than standard industry, 'cause industry is looking to hire somebody and then have them start within the next week or two weeks, maybe a month if you're lucky.

academia, I was hired in, I believe, May of 2022,

and then I started January of 2023, and that is not uncommon.

Yes. It, it- Yeah ... it's not a fast-moving type of thing. And so I went into terminal leave.

I retired at the end of 2022 and, moved right into my job with Western Carolina. And, you know, interestingly enough, when I was working on my doctorate, I was looking at various different programs that had project management, m- master's degrees. And I was, like, doing a survey of all the places, being realistic about the options and kinda what I was looking at for the career, where I, my wife and I and children wanted to live, et cetera.

Everything lined up at Western, you know? But when you go into academia, you- you're kinda at the whim of what's available, when it's available. Right. And then there's no guarantee that you're going to be hired into that position anyway. Because there's a, a few positions, and a lot of people are interested in moving into them.

And it just so happened everything lined up and it worked out. But here's what's particularly interesting, from my perspective. George Washington's a great program. There's a lot of great programs out there, but here's the thing. Western Carolina has a legacy of leadership, and I'm not saying this simply because I'm there or that they're asking me to say any of it.

This is just the reality is that there's a legacy of leadership there. And what do I mean by this? Is Western Carolina University was,y- arguably the first project management master's program globally. I haven't seen anything to counter it. I've seen many things that imply it. So I can't say- Right

definitively, but it appears to be the case. Certainly PMI, the Project Management Institute, and the faculty of, Western Carolina worked together to develop the program right out of the gate in, the late '70s, early '80s. On top of that, the, very first project management journal, so just to give a, some historical context.

There, there's a few project management academic peer review journals out there IPMA,I, I believe, hosts the, International Project Management Journal. then you've got PMI, the Project Management Institute hosts and oversees the Project Management Journal. Now, before the pro- it was the Project Management Journal, it was the Project Management Quarterly.

The, the faculty of the Project Management Quarterly, or for Western Carolina, saw the transition into the Project Management Journal. The first editor-in-chief was a faculty member from- ... Western Carolina University. The, director for certifications for PMI was a faculty member at Western Carolina University.

The, there were four, govern- board members that oversaw the, the journal. Four of them were faculty members from Western Carolina. Right. On top of that, the journal was published wi- with, Western Carolina or i- in the area, so leveraging some of the Western Carolina's, you know, resources, whether it be through stakeholders, et cetera.

But here's what else is interesting. So one of the few remaining living, authors and participants of developing the Project Management Professional certification, can attest to this. I,Was done on Western Carolina University's campus. Right. So even, like arguably the most universally used certification globally all started at Western Carolina.

And last point that I would say is, there was a, an accreditation that was done in, '83 before, GAC, the Global Accreditation Center, started their, accreditation for now well over 100 programs globally. ultimately Western Carolina was The first in the US, arguably the world. It goes back and forth with a- another institution, in Canada, but, there's a little bit of, friendly rivalry.

Rivalry. But ultimately the point is this was not my, necessarily my design to try and go to where it kind of all started, so to speak, but that's where it ended up and where I ended up at Western and, you know, it's a fantastic program. The faculty there are all practitioners and as well as scholars.

Everybody's a tenure or tenure track. I mean, it's just a great group of faculty all focused in on project management.

Yeah, so th- that is, an interesting question. Now, You talk to 100 people and you're gonna get maybe not 100 different opinions on this matter, but you'll certainly get a varied opinion set. I, I'm personally, a strong proponent of d- developing out some sort of universal career path.

You know, you look at some of these other, areas, not that anybody necessarily said, "Hey, you do point A, point B, to point C." But here's the thing. There are GAC, there are some undergraduate programs in project management. There are graduate programs in project management. There are certifications and qualifications in project management.

and, you know, we've... I'll just stick with PMI and,Axelos, because they, they oversee,the, the PRINCE2, the project incr- controlled environments. That's a qualification versus the, the certifications You have to look at where you're at. So what a- Let's take, for example, the Certified Associate in Project Management, or CAPM.

Okay? That is an entry-level certification through the Project Management Institute. Now, that particular certification, there's no requirement of understanding. It's not an easy exam, but it will give you the foundations to move into the project space. So let's say you're a service member and you're giving, given project tasks all the time.

You- they're not called projects, but now you need to build out the deployment plan. Well, that's a project. that has a definite start and definite end. you likely have a date that you gotta pick, and you gotta build out everything between training and resources and everything associated with it.

That'd be all right to do. that's a smaller project. You can build out your framework depending on where you're at. you know, you get the understanding that can help you transition into the overall space. A bachelor's degree, you know, gives you the foundational, fundamental information on how to manage projects, be a, you know, a, a project manager or an, assistant project manager, junior project manager.

you know, but that's more transformative in nature. you're getting into tool and- tools and techniques. What, and actually performing them in your academic settings where from a certification perspective, you're, for lack of a better analogy, you're memorizing the menu of things that you can do.

You don't necessarily need to perform those when you take the certification. The expectation from the governing bodies of those institutions is that you know how to do them, but really they're looking at, do you have that information? Whereas, a bachelor's degree, would require you to actually know that's not associated certifications perceptions of best practices, but generally looking at the broader project management career field and being able to implement it from that foundational si- side of things.

Then you go to, say, a project management professional, which is at least within the United States and arguably Cana- Canada, you've got thousands of job openings at any given time. But here's the thing is you need three years of experience to be able to, to even sit for that exam. And then, again, it's only through the PMI's framework All right?

So are you able to memorize what PMI says is the best way to go about, managing projects? Your organization may not do it that way, but ultimately having, earning that certification puts you in a, a strong position to have another box checked to be able to be qualify for applying for the job. Now, I will say- Yeah

seeing project managers versus, that have a PMP versus those who don't, there's something to be said about that certification and the grit required to pass the exam. It's not an easy exam. Quite frankly, it's a miserable exam to sit through. But, it shows that grit, resilience, your understanding.

You will be able to pick up best practices associated with it that will make you a better project manager. Now, depending on the master's program, that, it spans from what I would call, you know, a PMP on steroids. it takes you, you know, from the basic to be able to accelerate, and then there's other programs that require you to be a project manager first before you can, before you can even be admitted.

Some of these other master's programs, you don't need any project management experience. Others look at it so you can become more professionalized, to move into C-suite roles. You get more of a dynamic into,the soft skills along with the technical skills- ... to be able to navigate all sides of project management and move up into senior leadership type of roles.

And so that is much more of a transformative experience, like truly transformative, of experienced project managers across industries that come together and are able to find out what the best practice is, not only from a, you know, maybe a PMI or a Axelos perspective or, International Project Management Association perspective, what have you, but it's now bridging the gap between academia and practicing.

So to go back to your question, all right, you're, the, the service member is thinking about doing this. Well, the first question that I would say is, one, do you have a bachelor's degree or, do you have a master's degree? Do you need to get one or the other, before you get out? All right, if you're junior enlisted and don't have a whole lot of, project experience, you're just doing what you need to do to, to get the job done, well, I think you're well-positioned for the CAPM, the Certified Associate in Project Management And here's the thing.

the, the last time I looked, Forbes was doing an assessment and I... And it may have updated, but you're looking at getting out at approximately $72,000 a year job as a project coordinator or project analyst, a junior project manager. If,you're looking at, PMP, you're looking at 120, 122,000 US dollars a year.

And, I've seen recently, I didn't validate it, but I saw recently it said, approximately 135,000 a year, for a PMP. Well- Th- to be frank, that's the balance in the understanding. There are numbers associated with these certifications. A degree, there's not numbers associated- Right ... or at least not numbers that I've come across.

So i- it's-

Do you want a piece of paper saying you know how to run projects but don't actually know how to run projects, you're good at memorizing and justifying? Or do you wanna know how to run projects And then, you know, maybe still get a certification to just be part of, a, you know, demon- I think that's one of the- Outwardly demonstrating, you know?

Well, a- and one more thing- Okay

is where do you live in the world or where do you want to live in the world? Right. Because as I said, you know, your certification, for PMI may be a big deal in the United States, and it certainly is in other co- countries, make no mistake, but I'm thinking of the UK, in and of itself. Prince2 is w- if you wanna work on the, the British market, that's the one that you're going to have.

Yeah, they'll look at the... Employers may look at the PMI or, certification, whether it be CAPM or PMP, and say, "Oh, okay, cool." But they're still gonna go towards those other- Right ... you know? But let's say you, you wanna be a contractor and live in Germany and work for the US. Maybe the PMP is still the thing.

So you- The, the point is you need to be deliberate-

in what you're doing. now I suspect as we go through these, interviews, we're gonna meet the gambit of individuals who you're like, "Hey, I just kinda fell into it." But a- at least from my perspective, the more deliberate you are, it's,the better off you're going to be able to find- Right

that pathway. Now,

Yes. Now-

Yeah. Now, you know, i- if that's not your style and then okay, but, certainly having a plan, even if it doesn't work out, that's okay, but you ha- you're well-positioned for something else.

You wanna go into agile?

Go for an agile certification. Get your certified scrum master. Get a product owner if you wanna be on the business side of a- of the house. All of these things, there's s- there's niches within niches. I talked about Lean Six Sigma. Th- those are projects.

But it's on the operations side of projects, okay?

You're trying to eliminate,waste and reduce defects. and all of these have their p- their place. you've got SAFe, et cetera. Ultimately, at the end of the day, though, education cannot, certifications can't necessarily be taken away from you in the... or at least the knowledge of those processes and methodologies and frameworks.

Providing you don't forget them- ... they'll stick with you. Right.

Yeah. I'm thinking of all my, you know, peers and in the various different s- spaces, and what I was doing at that rank and age level, and things of that nature. I would say whether it's b- it's project management or something else, you know, it's hard to figure out what you wanna do when you grow up, you know, so to speak.

it really-

Yes, it really is. And you know, that, that's all right. There are plenty, you know, multinational organizations with founders who were in their 50s. you know, it, that is not unheard of But the one thing that, that is, necessary is excellence. It is being the best that you can, be in a position that you do.

And so I would recommend always striving to excel and get the pinnacle of that particular area. In this case, you know, the, the pinnacle, certainly not, there... I may get lambasted for this, because it's not certainly the pinnacle of the overall project space, but the PMP certification is more of a pinnacle insofar as demand is concerned.

And so, you know, if you wanna get into project management, set the pathway to end up getting your PMP, and that, that's kind of that gateway into a lot of other project space areas, particularly on the traditional side. If you wanna get into software development, look at the scrum master and become an advanced scrum master, et cetera.

Do those things, take those steps necessary to find yourself in those positions. Become the best project manager you can. Take those transformative experiences. Learn from peers. Go get a master's degree in one of the few programs. Certainly Western is a fantastic, program that's a transformative experience.

You have to have requirements for it. But I'll tell you, there's plenty of students that I, that we have that have been project managers that didn't have certifications, that go and get their master's degrees and then end up getting a certification later. and they're crushing it. Absolutely crushing it. Now, I'm not necessarily advocating for Western just 'cause I work there, but, you know, I'm just telling you from what I see and what I know. and so, and GW, I'm an alum of that. That was a fantastic program. I've seen other programs that are really quite good. I can attest to these two, because I've been directly involved with them, and they're absolutely fantastic.

and seeing the alumni outcome in both of these pro- programs, both of those programs are phenomenal.

you know, but the, the whole point to this, Stewart, is I'm not gonna advocate to the best of my ability for any particular program, or, industry. This is just- From my perspective, you know, I'll base it to, to the best of my ability on quantitative data, on research.

I'll be bringing in academic terms. I won't try and sicken anybody with turning it into a lecture or anything like that from my side. trying to be agnostic as far as, certifications and education. I, I can tell you what I see anecdotally from an output, but this is all meant to be a, a mentorship session writ large for those individuals who are considering a career in project management.

All right? the program of choice, like we can give pro and cons, and I'm willing to bet as we continue on with our stud- the interviewees, they're gonna have different approaches. They're gonna have different certifications. They may not have certifications. And, you know, if we're lucky enough to pull in veterans from all over the world, then we can s- find out what works in, with them.

But it's all about veterans helping other veterans find their pathway into project management. It, this is meant to be an authentic n- you know, outsta- outside of, "Hey, what'd you do? what'd you do in the military? What are you doing now?" What was the purpose and intent, and throwing in some, some lessons learned.

You know, this is, there's really no agenda that I think this show, has except to help. Yeah. To be that pathway, be that storytelling of what people's real-life experiences are, how they navigated the space to achieve, and ultimately find a career field where they find sense of purpose. And you know, I put this in one of my, writings is, be able to afford to take a well-earned vacation a- once, twice a year.

You know?

Thank you so much, Stuart. I'm looking forward to going on this journey with you and, you know, tap dancing between those real-life stories.

I may geek out and throw out some of those data, so there's that as well. But, certainly look forward to it. a- I think in the next interview we get to learn about you and your background. i- isn't that accurate?

Well, it ... And then from there, who knows where we'll go.

But, anyway, thanks so much, Stuart. I look forward to our next discussion.